36 sqft! Yep that'll do it... can't sail upside down!

[Smish]

Here we go!

"Sail Mark 5!!!”… 36 sqft!… sounds scary!… but actually it’s a kiddy-boat sail, “Optimist” class trainer. Full credit to the 11 year olds I’ve watched on Youtube, doing regattas in up to 30 knot winds and 4 metre swells going at over 10 knots in nothing more than a boat that’s slightly less hydrodynamic than a bathtub with a sail! Naively, I thought such a sail would be perfect for my little rubber kayak… How wrong could I be! It was a freak’n beast to tame! I felt like I was trying to break-in a horse! I spent hours working to get that thing to behave; it rolled me a few times but eventually… I prevailed… “ish”… (some mods required)… I had to hobble the sail by taking out the top batten therefore opening the leech and spilling out wind during a big gust, which is a bit sad considering it’s a trainer “racing sail” built for speed… Check out these youtube clips!





...and I was struggling with 20 knot gusts! On flat water!

The last few days have actually been perfect conditions for testing my set-up, the gusting, swirling northerly offered up different conditions minute to minute and the challenge of sailing upwind back to shore quickly exposed any limitations in the system. In a nutshell the boat sails well and is stable at around 8kph and about a 12 to 15 knot breeze but as the wind picks up or gusts and it starts to heel excessively then it abruptly spears windward... which makes sense if you've ever been skiing, its a catamaran hull but connected at the front so when the boat heels and the bow digs in its like a skier with slightly toed-in skis, if you put pressure on your right foot... you go left! Arrgh! this is a fatal flaw!.. I think?.. I'm going to experiment with some modifications on my leeboards, at the moment they're compounding the problem with the way they're set up. On a positive note the sail points well, 50 degrees into the wind is achievable and with a bit of concentration I could go a little tighter.

I'm happy with the performance in up to 15 knots but its twitchy and hard to control in bigger winds, 20 knots is survivable but anything over that and it all goes pear shaped...
The rig itself is as tough as nails, even when it capsized and I went for a swim it only took a few minutes to right it and get back on board. (Which I'm sure was mildly entertaining for the VYAK guys that were having a beer beach side ) Also I have full confidence in my clothes, despite the wind and being soaked to the bone I was never cold and continued sailing for another 4 hours 'til dark, didn't even need to break out the spare jacket I had stowed in my seat!

Here's some pics from my Sunday trial.







Cheers,

Andrew

[paddlepop]

Great vids..jeez it looks hairy. Although...I generally note thyat most of these types of vids show yaks / dingys actually running off with the wind. Id like to see them on a broad reach. A different story would emerge methinks...!

rig is looking good andrew....we need a meet for all us DIYers. I'm pretty happy up to about 25 Knts - anything stronger and it gets scary!!!

[maverick]

They are nutz.

[Smish]

Great vids..jeez it looks hairy. Although...I generally note thyat most of these types of vids show yaks / dingys actually running off with the wind. Id like to see them on a broad reach. A different story would emerge methinks...!

rig is looking good andrew....we need a meet for all us DIYers. I'm pretty happy up to about 25 Knts - anything stronger and it gets scary!!!

25 knots!!? Nah... the new sail would get pretty ugly... the boat's not balanced yet, I reckon I'd be constantly fighting for control... and losing... I did some research last night and found that heeling and spearing windward is normal in a strong gust if the sail is overpowered for the rig, there's a few things I can play with to alleviate the weather helm like raking the mast forward and shifting my leeboards back which I think will work a treat for 15 knot winds but from all accounts in a 20+ knot wind I should reef the sail... Which I can't really do! So 25 knots... I'm out!

I'll let you know next time in your area, it's a great spot for a sail.

I think I'll revisit Elm's thread, I was in Sorrento a few weeks back and despite the distance it's the best location for a meet because it doesn't matter which way the wind blows you should be able to find good water to sail, so unless it's pi$$ing down with rain or there's lightning you could pretty much set any date and make a day of it.

Cheers,

Andrew

[GoneFishn]

Andrew that is a very committed sail Looks very professional.

"Sail Mark 5!!!”… 36 sqft!… sounds scary!… but actually it’s a kiddy-boat sail, “Optimist” class trainer.

The only difference between that type of boat and your kayak is that they have a central daggarboard which would give them more stability

we need a meet for all us DIYers. I'm pretty happy up to about 25 Knts - anything stronger and it gets scary!!!

I agree it'll be good to see how each of us have gone about setting up our sails. I still haven't tested mine to to its limits. Due to the smaller size of my sail I reckon I should be fine at 25kn

[Smish]

Andrew that is a very committed sail Looks very professional.

"Sail Mark 5!!!”… 36 sqft!… sounds scary!… but actually it’s a kiddy-boat sail, “Optimist” class trainer.

The only difference between that type of boat and your kayak is that they have a central daggarboard which would give them more stability

we need a meet for all us DIYers. I'm pretty happy up to about 25 Knts - anything stronger and it gets scary!!!

I agree it'll be good to see how each of us have gone about setting up our sails. I still haven't tested mine to to its limits. Due to the smaller size of my sail I reckon I should be fine at 25kn

The daggerboard on an Oppie creates a more substantial centre of lateral resistance (CLR) but the boat is smaller and less stable than a catamaran style like mine and the kids that sail them are half my weight so the daggerboard and its size is not directly applicable to my boat. The problem seems to be that because my boat is so light wherever I sit has a big influence on the CLR so if I sit too far forward I get a strong weather helm but if I'm too far back due to the inherent flex of an inflatable I can't use my weight to keep the boat from heeling too far and I get blown over. Ideally I should be sitting around the middle because that's where the boat is balanced if there's no sail and then rake the mast forward to shift the centre of effort (CE) closer to the bow, also move the leeboards toward the stern and increase their surface area to 4% of the sail area (which is a little under 1.5 sqft.). I'm certain this will do the trick, but how far back should the leeboards go?.. and if they end up at my hip then they'll interfere with my paddling... I'm getting a headache...

[ELM]

It looks great smish and might be a great option for days forecast in the 7 to 15 knot range and then possibly a smaller sail for the stronger 15 to 25 knot winds. Of course all this will also need to be balanced with leeboards and there position for optimum performance.

I seriously hope you are not thinking of sailing your kayak in those sort of conditions (1st video)?

I have had my AI in conditions very similar to those shown in the video but on PPB where I think the wave spacing is a lot shorter. First time I did it (off the point at Safety Beach (didn't feel real safe)), I did it for the experience, second time I got caught out (6km off Hovel Pile), both times N-N/Westerly I wished I wasn't there.
From the AI's perspective, a beam to broad reach is asking to be tumbled like a doll in a clothes dryer, and running down wind I was submerging the bow up over the front hatch while I tried to climb as far back as possible, waiting for the pitch pole . About the only safe direction was "close Reach, close hauled until the wave size died down and more importantly, spacing, then I could safely start to tack and manoeuvre between the waves without worrying about a pitch pole or huli so much.

I have been able to get out when it is strong S to S-S/E 25+ knot winds, gusts to 40+ at times, off Tyrone with flat water, but that's very limited to beam reaches running close to the protection of the shore, just to see how fast I could get. You can also do this in strong Easterlies off Sunnyside etc and in the protection of the cliffs, however with any of these spots, if you go just that fraction further, it all turns to crap real quick and can be quite hard to get back into sheltered water without being huli or pitch poled.

My biggest concern with a kayak like yours (inflatable) in winds like that, is I can only imagine how easy it would be for the wind to just pick it up, then lift/blow it away, and the visual images of that don't paint a pretty picture. I know I dare not fit my tramps for the same reason in strong winds even if I use the tramps to haul out on.

[madfishman]

Hi,
i have been reading your posts for a while and find it quite intriguing on what you have accomplished.

firstly i am not a sailor and never will be...but your posts have been very interesting.

I actually saw you last sunday take a stack in altona, too bloody cold for me and too much effort.

after all the mods you have completed why didnt you just get one of these.

big ol ship

Sailing ship.jpg (14.62 KiB) Viewed 2903 times

good luck, enjoy your posts.

[jessejaay]

Looks good mate,

A lot of guys seem to be getting into sailing, looks like great fun,

Would not mind it myself !

[Smish]

I seriously hope you are not thinking of sailing your kayak in those sort of conditions (1st video)?

I have been able to get out when it is strong S to S-S/E 25+ knot winds, gusts to 40+ at times, off Tyrone with flat water, but that's very limited to beam reaches running close to the protection of the shore, just to see how fast I could get. You can also do this in strong Easterlies off Sunnyside etc and in the protection of the cliffs, however with any of these spots, if you go just that fraction further, it all turns to crap real quick and can be quite hard to get back into sheltered water without being huli or pitch poled.

My biggest concern with a kayak like yours (inflatable) in winds like that, is I can only imagine how easy it would be for the wind to just pick it up, then lift/blow it away, and the visual images of that don't paint a pretty picture. I know I dare not fit my tramps for the same reason in strong winds even if I use the tramps to haul out on.

No chance of sailing in those conditions Elm! The first clip actually doesn’t look too bad, just some big a$$ swell, the wind doesn’t look much over 20 knots… the second clip is hardcore! But as Paddles said no “broad reaching” they’re running, still a great effort though, keep in mind they’re kids in their early teens or pre-teens… pretty impressive.

I’ve read on another forum about some of your exploits Elm, 11.8 knots! I feel like I’m flying at 11kph! It’s funny though how quickly you get used to going faster… if I go below 5kph now I feel like I’ve stalled.

40 knot gusts… that’s ridiculous! Not something I’d expect a conscientious person like you to be finding yourself at the mercy of *that* kind of weather!
But out of curiosity I did the calculations and the total force exerted at broad reach would be 150kgs… doable if I drank a keg of beer and ate a family sized pizza with the lot… every day for a month! That should provide the required ballast to keep me from being airborne.

I’m keen to set a date for a sail yak get-together and August is looking good in my diary. Sorrento although a bit out of the way for myself and no doubt others, is a good venue.

Cheers,

Andrew