PA12 not draining problem

[MetalMuzz]

I hope this is the relevant section of the forum to post this.

I've seen a couple of PA12's with the problem in the below picture where water does not drain out of the area beside the seat. (the blood red in first pic) Does everyone with a PA12 have this issue? I don't want to be alarmist, but I suspect yes and if you don't now, and i hope i'm wrong, you may have soon.

PA12 drainage problem

The water that gets into the '12, especially when giving it a hose down, sits in this area. It won't fully drain unless the yak is rolled on it's side.
It's also where the reels sit (or reel seats sit if the reeels are upwards) in the event salt water gets into the yak - the reels will get wet!
I've done a bit of looking into the problem and believe that its a design issue with the support brackets for the steering handle (can we call it a tiller??) under the deck- the black piece in the below picture.

PA12 steering support bracket in place

The bent steering support bracket

The problem is two fold and possibly a bit more serious than a mouding defect.
The spring pressure acts on the bracket and pushes it upwads towards the steer handle. This exerts downwards force on the bottom of the deck where the bracket is mounted and pulls the deck down - like a lever - so it won't drain.
Over time - in my case three months - the bracket deforms.
Importantly, the pressure on this bracket pulls the deck downwards under pressure. It's not very thick in this part - about 2.5mm. The pressure is taken only by the tops of the screws that hold the bracket (Just as a side note, the screws are M5 thread but the nuts underneath require a 3/8 spanner - how did the Yanks do that?) This could possibly, over a long period of time induce a stress crack unless the pressure is released.

To fix this, i reckon three things need to be done - the spring pressure needs to be reduced to the point where it is just touching the bracket, the bracket needs to be stronger and the load needs to be spread over a larger area of the deck. So a new, stronger and wider bracket is needed.

The spring is a conical coil spring length measuring 53mm (2&1/8" for those of you so dedicated to Hobie you've turned American) so compressing it fully reduced it's length to 45mm (work it out yourself if you want inches) so this relieves the pressure easily.
Once i've made / modified the new bracket, i'll post the results. Might take a a short while - need to work out how to do it. I can cut straights, but the arcs in the bracket that make the stop position for the steering are far more tricky.

Any comments or suggestions - happy to hear them. I could live with it, but it annoys me. I'm less than impressed with finding this type of issue in my prized new yak.

Cheers
Murray
PS: My first go at posting pics, so if they don't come out can someone let me know.
M
PPS: Yes i know, it's NY eve and i should be drinking not posting. Happy NY to everyone.

[Kingo]

I have the same is. It it doesn't realty bother me, I don't see it been a major issue. I would be cautious in making your own bracket from a warrante point of view.
If it does turn out to be a major issue down the track I'm sure hobie will rectify they have the best customer service/ after sales service in the industry
As for reels getting wet, if you take a reel kayak fishing expect it to get wet it's the nature of the sport, with proper washing down and maintenance the reels should last a lifetime

[Babylon]

I hope this is the relevant section of the forum to post this.

I've seen a couple of PA12's with the problem in the below picture where water does not drain out of the area beside the seat. (the blood red in first pic) Does everyone with a PA12 have this issue? I don't want to be alarmist, but I suspect yes and if you don't now, and i hope i'm wrong, you may have soon.

PA12 no drain1.jpg

The water that gets into the '12, especially when giving it a hose down, sits in this area. It won't fully drain unless the yak is rolled on it's side.
It's also where the reels sit (or reel seats sit if the reeels are upwards) in the event salt water gets into the yak - the reels will get wet!
I've done a bit of looking into the problem and believe that its a design issue with the support brackets for the steering handle (can we call it a tiller??) under the deck- the black piece in the below picture.

PA12 steering support1.jpg

Steering support bracket - bent.jpg

The problem is two fold and possibly a bit more serious than a mouding defect.
The spring pressure acts on the bracket and pushes it upwads towards the steer handle. This exerts downwards force on the bottom of the deck where the bracket is mounted and pulls the deck down - like a lever - so it won't drain.
Over time - in my case three months - the bracket deforms.
Importantly, the pressure on this bracket pulls the deck downwards under pressure. It's not very thick in this part - about 2.5mm. The pressure is taken only by the tops of the screws that hold the bracket (Just as a side note, the screws are M5 thread but the nuts underneath require a 3/8 spanner - how did the Yanks do that?) This could possibly, over a long period of time induce a stress crack unless the pressure is released.

To fix this, i reckon three things need to be done - the spring pressure needs to be reduced to the point where it is just touching the bracket, the bracket needs to be stronger and the load needs to be spread over a larger area of the deck. So a new, stronger and wider bracket is needed.

The spring is a conical coil spring length measuring 53mm (2&1/8" for those of you so dedicated to Hobie you've turned American) so compressing it fully reduced it's length to 45mm (work it out yourself if you want inches) so this relieves the pressure easily.
Once i've made / modified the new bracket, i'll post the results. Might take a a short while - need to work out how to do it. I can cut straights, but the arcs in the bracket that make the stop position for the steering are far more tricky.

Any comments or suggestions - happy to hear them. I could live with it, but it annoys me. I'm less than impressed with finding this type of issue in my prized new yak.

Cheers
Murray
PS: My first go at posting pics, so if they don't come out can someone let me know.
M
PPS: Yes i know, it's NY eve and i should be drinking not posting. Happy NY to everyone.

Interesting keep us posted

[HaTTerS]

Yes, I have the same problem, but I haven't yet been out in conditions that make it an issue when I'm out on the water. I only notice it when I'm washing down the yak.
A quick wipe or tip of the yak and it's gone.

I have the same is. It it doesn't realty bother me, I don't see it been a major issue. I would be cautious in making your own bracket from a warrante point of view.
If it does turn out to be a major issue down the track I'm sure hobie will rectify they have the best customer service/ after sales service in the industry
As for reels getting wet, if you take a reel kayak fishing expect it to get wet it's the nature of the sport, with proper washing down and maintenance the reels should last a lifetime

X2

I'll be leaving mine as is for now. If it becomes more serious, I have no doubt that Hobie will do the right thing by me.

[MetalMuzz]

I would be cautious in making your own bracket from a warrante point of view.

I
Good point Kingo. It's more of a nuisance value at this stage. Gonna irtriate me now i know it's there til its solved.

I put mine back together this morning (can't fish with no steering) with only the spring tension shortened 8mm and measured the compressed spring. It comresses to 33mm which means 20mm squash of a fairly strong spring which is a fair bit for the fairly flimsy bracket. I'm confident this is the base of the problem. As soon as i tightened the steer handle back to its home position, the deck bent down as the tension came on and the bracket flexed upwards.

Also, i found a great way to find leaks - this morning there was red food coloured H20 all through the inside of the hull under where i put it for the photo. Apparently at least one screw on that side is not sealing well. The red shows up straight away in the hull.

I will send the info to Hobie and see what they say. Hard to believe i'd be the first. If they respond, i'll post it.

Cheers
Muzz

[Donkey]

G'day Murray,

Yeah had the same problem with my pa12 since I got it. Not a huge issue but a bit annoying. I've been meaning to get some mesh, or something similar to put down and keep the reels out of the water, but still haven't. I have heard rumours of people moving the foam floatation blocks around inside the hull and this can fix it, although I'm yet to see it.

I agree, its a bit dissapointing. But after about 6 months it's the only problem I've found and I can live with it.

[bjspinner]

You could try doubling up the thickness of the brackets and longer screws, or make a stainless plate to line up with the four bolt holes with the section removed where the arch is for the steering stop.

This way you are using the existing bracket steering stop.

Or worry about it if it becomes a problem (let hobbie worry).

[Ladyyak]

I have a rectangular car sponge in either side of these holding areas....any wash, pick up the sponge and squeeze it out. After the hose down always use these to mop up any residual water....easy.

Interested to hear if it gets any worse.

Thanks

[MetalMuzz]

Since my first post on this i have been in touch with the good folks at Hobie Australasia and they have proven to be a helpful bunch.
They have followed up with the Yanks and the problem must have been recognised by others.

The result is that Hobie have a modification kit to alleviate this problem.
This was from their response email.
"At Hobiecat we are continually improving and developing our products. We have had a few steering versions since the release of the PA 12 early last year. The water around the rod tray is common in these hulls however we have available the latest version of the PA 12 Steering kit that will fit your boat. This kit includes 2 x new steering cranks 2 x steering support plates 2 x (softer) PA12 steering springs as well as 2 x foam inserts to add floatation and raise the rod tray section. This can be installed at dealer level at no charge to you or it can be fitted by yourself if you feel you are able to install the latest version to your Kayak."
The replacement parts are the straight ones in the top of the photo!

PA12 steer arm bracket and spring replacement

Note It is a MUCH lighter spring.
I fitted it myself due to it being a 2.5 hr return journey to nearest dealer. Took about an hour and a half. Little bit fiddly / tricky but definitely doable by the amateur.
Oh, my yak was one of the last before the price went up in October last year but the dealer can check from the hull number if you should need the upgrade.
I have yet to get the yak in the briny but the result visibly is definitely better.
I think the steering is a little lighter as well.

Hope this helps anyone with concerns.

Cheers
Muzz

[Babylon]

good to see it all worked out for you Murray,thanks for posting an update.Cheers babylon